WICCA 202 CLASS LOG SHAMANISM GIVEN BY REDDEER

< boudica> Red, if you please <RedDeer> otay... * melilot bounces up and down <RedDeer> watch just where you bounce please sis <moonLstnr> ladyBree applause.wav <RedDeer> Please bear with me tonight folk... this is stream of (un)consciousness <RedDeer> no macros... <RedDeer> So, as I thought about this evening, I tried to define for myself what Shamanism is to me... <RedDeer> And I wanted a really pure definition. But the more I tried to explain it to myself, <RedDeer> the more lost I became... <OceansEdg> :) <RedDeer> and I thought, if you can't even explain credibly for yourself <RedDeer> how the hell will you explain it to someone else? <RedDeer> A conundrum... but not for long. <RedDeer> We experience the same thing trying to explain the Craft <RedDeer> to those who are not of it... <RedDeer> We as often define what the Craft is not, as what it is... <RedDeer> so, I thought, let go a bit from the ideal of a pure definition, <RedDeer> and do it by contrast... <RedDeer> Now, what do some of YOU consider to be possibly the major contrasts between Witchcraft and Shamanism? <RedDeer> no takers? <OceansEdg> I'm not sure I see constrasts...rather compliments <DRAGONS2> a lot is very similar <EricBr> there a contrast <melilot> same stew different pot to me red <OceansEdg> shamanism being a far broader field <RedDeer> I fear you take my use of contrast as a negative OE... contrasts ARE compliments... <EricBr> Witchcraft is not a part of the Shamanism? <RedDeer> ah Eric... very interesting. <OceansEdg> I mean depends on whether one is talking celtic shamanism or NA shamanism or global shamanism... no? <RedDeer> I've heard many describe the Craft as a Shamanic religion... but is it PART of Shamanism? <melilot> think it depends on your view of "witchcraft" eric <RedDeer> not in the broadest sense OE... all of those Shamans have something in common <caitlin``> isn't there a difference regards gender too ... at least with native lore, there really wasn't a distinction between 'he' and 'she' <RedDeer> let's look at what we do... <RedDeer> First Witches... where do we "practice"? <boudica> circles... outdoors <moonLstnr> anywhere <OceansEdg> *smile* everywhere? <melilot> depends on the witch red a witch can be any religion therefor the places of practice may very <LadyBree> Anywhere s/he needs to. <RedDeer> but what do most Witches first DO in that place... <RedDeer> ??? <boudica> circle <RedDeer> AHA!!! boudi.. raise a circle. <melilot> not all witches raise circles <RedDeer> We separate ourselves from time and space <RedDeer> look up meli... I never said all <RedDeer> and create a world in which our rite, ritual or magick occurs <OceansEdg> does not the shamanist do the same thing? perhaps a different methodology... but the same concept? <RedDeer> Exactly NOT OE, but it's a great question. <RedDeer> I mean, yes there is preparation, but the point of it is what I'm getting at. <RedDeer> The focus of the circle is to bring mind(s) within it... <RedDeer> To create at a point that which is all <RedDeer> The Shaman does not by ANY means seek this <RedDeer> Shaman, Shadow-walker, Walker-between-the-worlds... <RedDeer> Many of their names tell us this. <RedDeer> Be they NA, Celtic, or from the Steppes of Russia - not to mention plain ole American - <RedDeer> the Shaman goes upon a journey... <OceansEdg> ahhh ok... I see what you're saying <RedDeer> S/he doe not focus consciousness inward to a point, but outward to the World(s) <OceansEdg> mohammed goes to the mountain, instead of bringing the mountain to him? <RedDeer> Now, when we get into Worlds, there are many significant differences between Shamanic practices from culture to culture <Lord_Bear> shamanism is how you practice your religion ... just as ceremonial might be for one person .. or solitary might for another. <RedDeer> but withing this simple framework, they all go OUT from the center upon a journey <RedDeer> I disagree bear... shamanism is not essentially religious at all... <caitlin``> does the shaman then view time and space differently from the witch? <RedDeer> Many see, practice and live it so... but many Shamans ancient and modern walked among Spirits who were there betters, equals and lessers... but were NOT their gods <Lord_Bear> I didn't say it was, red deer.. just a method to get to your religion .. <RedDeer> gotta tease caitlin... tell me how a Witch views time and spave and I'll answer you <g> <DRAGONS2> it's not a religion <Lord_Bear> it can also be used to get to dark magic .. al la the sorcerers of the navajo <OceansEdg> teehee <RedDeer> what then for the Shaman who has no religion??? <Lord_Bear> it can be used just to find out how to survive in the wild <Lord_Bear> it is a method of recognizing the worth and the value of all life <OceansEdg> hurrmmm perhaps the key is in the difference between religion and spirituality? <RedDeer> aye... that's the sorta reason I wanted to emphasize the clear separation from religion per se <caitlin``> had to open my mouth ;) but the shaman operates on different levels of consciousness no? <RedDeer> Ah, but the Shaman doesn't have to be "spiritual <RedDeer> " in our modern use of the word... <Lord_Bear> exactly .. that has been my goal in #shaman for 2.5 years .. to remove the "religion" aspect from it .. while keeping emphasis on the spirituality of life all around. <Lord_Bear> true . the shamand does not have to be spiritual <Lord_Bear> but I choose to be... <RedDeer> Eliade, in his seminal tome on the subject, notes many negative characteristics of the Shaman <Lord_Bear> and shamanism is how I choose to pursue my spiritual path of Seeker. <RedDeer> in the many cultures he studied, he found common threads for the Path TO Shamanism <Lord_Bear> it is how I choose to help my neighbor .. and to teach those who come to me for help to help themeseves. <Lord_Bear> true .. but Eliade also had one basic flaw... <RedDeer> they were usually sickly children, and tended to grow up somewhat psychosomatic, antisocial and simply irritable... <Lord_Bear> he set up the primary "requirements for a shamanic religion" and then ruled that there was no religion on the earth that could be considered shamanic. <Lord_Bear> none remaining that is <RedDeer> aye, and he was right (imo) <RedDeer> at any rate, we usually consider the spiritual person patient, kind, giving, etc etc etc <Lord_Bear> he ignored the maori of malaysia .. the aborigine .. and several other cultures <RedDeer> not at all the typical picture of a traditional shaman... <LadyBree> (Nor of most of the BNPs I've met so far...eg) <RedDeer> True, s/he journeyed for the welfare of others... but also for the welfare of self... <RedDeer> And here is another difference between most Witches (modern at least) and the concept of Shamanism <melilot> wouldn't one have to journey for self before one could dare to jouney for others? <RedDeer> It costs me as a Walker to retrieve something from the world for another... <RedDeer> and it is perfectly ethical for it to cost the other to get it from me... <DRAGONS2> what do you mean by that? <Lord_Bear> energy costs, dragons .. why should the shaman be the sugardaddy for everyone that comes to him? <RedDeer> As a Witch, I cast circle, perform ritual and work magick - reweaving forces easily accessible to me in nature and asking my Lady and Lord to facilitate my working <RedDeer> As a Shaman, I deliberately venture into the world seeking others... others with answers <DRAGONS2> so your basically talking $ and cents by that comment? <RedDeer> others with contacts <LadyBree> Not necessarily, Dragons..... <RedDeer> others with whom I barter and trade for what I need <melilot> cost can be energy drgaon <Lord_Bear> no .. my patients do work that I am missing by helping them .. that is energy for energy <RedDeer> well dragon... that depends. Have I ever charged anyone for making a journey on their behalf? <RedDeer> NO <RedDeer> will I? <RedDeer> NO <RedDeer> would I consider it unethical for another to do so? <RedDeer> NO <Paniteowl> The other side of that coin <G> .. is you would not ask for someone to undertake a journey on your behalf without feeling some obligation to the journeyour. <RedDeer> i will not take money, and I will not ASK for anything else... but I will accept a gift with a thankyou <DRAGONS2> You haven't said anything that I dont' already know but I was just looking for clarity at to what you consider a cost <RedDeer> but this is really the Witch in me, not the Shaman <RedDeer> energy, physical tokens <RedDeer> one does not typically deal with money... spirit guides have little use for it <g> <Paniteowl> <G> yep <Lord_Bear> ;=^} <OceansEdg> :)) <LadyBree> 1,8:) <Lord_Bear> money feels wrong .. personally think that's the problem with a lot of the religions .. got really spiritual .. till they got lots of money .. now look at them. <RedDeer> So, thus far I have two major contrasts between the Craft and Shamanism... <RedDeer> the inward focus of the circle vs the outward focus of the shamanic journey <RedDeer> and the idea of compensation... <RedDeer> oh, by the way, you can get good ideas of just what such compensation can be from many fairy tales... <Paniteowl> In the time of the tribes, or clans, the interaction of shaman was part of the whole of the society .. a barter method <LadyBree> Hehe....watch out...don't promise your first born. <caitlin``> but within the circle, energy is raised that's directed outward? <Paniteowl> In today's society, we are not so closely linked, and the coin of the realm has supplanted the personal energy exchange <Aleister> that depends on your feelings about your first born <G> <RedDeer> aye caitlin, but most Witches don't manage to fly off with their cones of power <caitlin``> true RD <melilot> hehehe aleister <DRAGONS2> hehe <RedDeer> exactly aleister... the cost of using a Shaman can be VERY high... an may generally be on a par in value with what the Shaman is sent to seek... <RedDeer> of course, I'm referring to traditional practices... not what WASSh's do in middle america <g> <caitlin``> but depending on what the shaman attempts to do, the cost can be high or dangerous for the shaman <Paniteowl> hehehehe <RedDeer> there is one more difference I'd like to explore, before openning this up for all of your ideas... <RedDeer> And that is some idea of the POINT of the whole thing... <RedDeer> Why do Witches hold rite/rituals/magickal workings? <Paniteowl> <G> .. cause we like them <moonLstnr> thanks/need <RedDeer> agreed <RedDeer> with PA and mL <LadyBree> So we can get nekkid and party......(EG) <Lord_Bear> truer than you know, caitlin .. in many cases during healings the shaman must take the "spirit" .. I prefer "energy" ... of the illness into him/herself and disperse it back into the Mother .. and this is true for many cultures as well... and if he bobbles .. then he gets that spirit him/herself. <RedDeer> and bree <melilot> what's this get nekkid and party? i'm already doing that <RedDeer> hmmm... every one here left out the most Shamanic thing Witches do <LadyBree> so that we can raise energy for workings....and so that we can "commune" with the God/dess... <Paniteowl> Seriously, RD .. the energy of Ritual is something which we all would like to have occur more often <RedDeer> not saying every Witch, every time... but MOST Witches <RedDeer> have done workings for others... <RedDeer> healing <RedDeer> money <melilot> hehehe red <RedDeer> peace <mListener> <-- nonGhost <Paniteowl> Eric, the energy raised in circle does not end when the circle is opened .. the afterglow continues <G> <RedDeer> anyway... this, to me, is the Shamanic aspect of the Craft (in terms of the Shamanic Journey... I'll gladly acceed that the personal communion of the Witch with the Gods is the most defining shamanic aspect of the Craft) <RedDeer> oops... did that make sense? <EricBr> ok <Lord_Bear> does to me <LadyBree> I said that, didn't I? <OceansEdg> yep it did <LadyBree> Communing with the God/dess. <Paniteowl> yep <G> <RedDeer> we seek to change the world... expect Witches seek the world they wish to create WITHIN, and then seek to release it WITHOUG <caitlin``> see Meli, PA's giving hints about her owlship again <g> <RedDeer> oops... WITHOUT! <Paniteowl> Oh, that was a good analogy RD!! <RedDeer> a Shaman, on the other hand, goes seeking amid the wide plains of possibilities, and then brings back the one s/he was searching for <RedDeer> two entirely different means to the SAME ends! <melilot> same stew different pot <RedDeer> and I personally find these two vary contrasting - and therefore complimentary - practices for myself... <Paniteowl> methodology is different, yet results are similar <RedDeer> One magickal system which takes me into my self, and therefore (hopefully) into the world <Paniteowl> Witches can journey beyond themselves, but to work magick, they go within <RedDeer> and one which takes me straight out into the many worlds of light and shadows... <RedDeer> So, that's the end of my rant... comments or questions? <OceansEdg> I can't say I've ever really tried separting them like that, but I can see what you mean <Paniteowl> Thanks RD, you've given me a new perspective on the Shaman journey concept <RedDeer> thank you PA... this was where my path began! <Paniteowl> <G> ... <melilot> many cultures use drugs in their shamanic practices how do you feel about this red? <RedDeer> singularly unopposed... so long as certain conditions are met <RedDeer> 1) drugs are used within the specific cultural context from which they derive <OceansEdg> like? <RedDeer> 2) drugs are taken ONLY under the supervision of a traditionally trained Shaman <melilot> i saw a program which allowed that most of the drug problems of this era are due to the lack of shamanic guidance and the chemical creation of drugs whats our view <melilot> not our your <G> <RedDeer> and 3) the Walker recognizes FROM THE BEGINNING that drugs are merely a way to help open a gate which s/he must assume responsibility for keeping open WITHOUT drugs <melilot> sort of like training wheels on a bike red <G> someday they gotta come off <Lord_Bear> there are several methods of acheiving the trance state needed, oe .. drugs are one .. dancing another .. self-mesmerism another .. it varies from culture to culture <RedDeer> personaly, i think that most of the drug use is on account of the total lack of expectation for individuals to comit to personal responsibility <RedDeer> aye meli <Paniteowl> hmmmm .. have never needed drugs to journey .. and have found that when I have had drugs in my system, my natural abilities seem retarded <RedDeer> aye bear <LadyBree> IMO, most of the seekers who use drugs to journey are too lazy to work for what they want. * melilot saw ritual done on cable with mesc was amazed was done by a tribal shaman <melilot> way of the world ladybree most are too lazy to work for what they want in RL let alone spritual <DRAGONS2> there are tribal shamans and there are tribal shamans <RedDeer> I'd say that's only generalizable to modern culture Bree... is not at all so in traditional cultures. <Lord_Bear> Mel .. the one on TLC ??? that coverd south east asia and compared the deep similarities in their methods with those of Lapland? <Paniteowl> well, Meli, being taught to use the drugs specifically within their culture, I could understand that, it has not been used in my teaching <LadyBree> I have no experience of other cultures to draw from.... <OceansEdg> in many cultures as well, such as the coca tribes in peru, the use is entirely different culturely AND in methodology <melilot> I think that's the one LB <RedDeer> cultures which associate mind altering drugs with their spirits (not narcs, coke or speed, but hallucingens) tend to revere the drugs almost as gods... <Lord_Bear> bree . you have to understand the specific rules red deer just outlined .. those aren't just RULES .. they are things the entire tribe did by instinct . so long had they done them it was part of their tribal life. <RedDeer> to abuse would be as near as many of their ideologies get to sin <LadyBree> It's my limited exposure, Bear....I'm trying to learn....but I also know what I see within my culture. <mListener> . <DRAGONS2> i think a large portion of the drug abuse in the country stems from ppl looking for something and not knowing where to find it <Paniteowl> Would a Shamanic journey be comparable to the Drawing Down? <melilot> they think the answer is as simple as taking the proper pill dragon <DRAGONS2> sure..they don't know they can get there without it <Lord_Bear> and a lot of interest in the wrong impression of shamanism and drugs is what sends a lot of drug seekers down the false shamans path, dragons. <RedDeer> Shamanism... yes, Shamanic Journey... no - IMO, of course. <melilot> dragon that's too much like work nothing is ever easy they want the short route <RedDeer> Drawing Down represents bringing the Lady (and maybe even the Lord) tangibly into the circle, the focus <DRAGONS2> unfortunatly yes. ...in our world of instant everything <RedDeer> but still bringing within to alter without <cait> and doesn't reading Castenada, etc. help turn them to drugs? <RedDeer> and the journey is still outwards in essence <Paniteowl> Yes, RD .. but is that not what the Shamanic Journey is attempting? .. To connect with guides? * Aleister knows people whose paths include drugs, and he would *not* question the validity of those paths <melilot> how does astral projection compare to shamanic journey? ! <LadyBree> Cait said the C word!!! * Aleister thinks this issue has been the seed of much intolerance <cait> wait, I didn't say chocolate Bree <g> <RedDeer> aye PA... as I said earlier opposite but equivalent (and very complimentary) approaches to the same ends <Lord_Bear> there's a big difference of opinion on that point, cait . yes . he did glorify drugs .. but he has sence repented his stand on drugs and such... other statements have been attributed to him, or rumors about what was done or he had done or whatever .. but to date there is no biography that can be pointed to. just that drug statement. <RedDeer> Sometimes the Shaman takes her/his body along for the ride <g> <melilot> Aleister: there is a big difference between using drugs within your spritual framework and using drugs to try and find sprituality <Paniteowl> Yep Meli!!!! <melilot> OH SHIT!!!!!!!!!! see what your presence does to the meli owl <Paniteowl> hehehehehe <cait> but it was a great statement Meli :) <melilot> but it's not suppose to come outta my mouth in front of people cait <G> <melilot> gonna ruin my image <LadyBree> It didn't...it came out of your fingers. <boudica> Well, i would like to thank RedDeer for doing our class tonight, as always, it was enlightening... <Paniteowl> hehehehe <boudica> and fun <Carielle> enhance, meli, not ruin<G> <melilot> actually it came outta my mouth i talk to my puter <boudica> and i would like to thank everyone else for joining us this evening <OceansEdg> Indeed :) <boudica> and adding to our enlightenment <melilot> heheheh cari <G> <Paniteowl> Good Job RD!!! <G> <RedDeer> most assuredly <Lord_Bear> red deer: if you had to give a definition for "Shaman" would it be closer to the definition harner gives (ie .. Had an NDE ..etc) or the tribal shaman of traditional training? <cait> did someone log it, when my power went out i lost it :( * OceansEdg has greatly missed RD's classes <Carielle> Sorry I missed it, Red :( Perhaps next time I'll be on time! <boudica> me too oe <RedDeer> for the sake of what I've been discussing tonight, the latter bear <melilot> i've missed his butt <boudica> carie, ill post it on the web page tomorrow and you can get a copy there <Carielle> kewl <DRAGONS2> I'm logging cait if you don't get it from soemone else * LadyBree hopes RD will come back often and talk. <RedDeer> but for most of the people I encounter who are Shaman, something a little more towards the former <g> <cait> great Dragons :) <boudica> Again, our thanks to everyone who made this a most successful class.... <RedDeer> thanks a million folks... but life hollers and I gotta fly <boudica> mp red <mListener> MP RD BB <RedDeer> BB & MP {{{pagans}}}